A simple Problem...but not able to think through TRIZ Principles

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Comment by Tushar Kanikdale on March 12, 2012 at 10:08pm

Hi Prakasan, Thanks for you guidance. Yes as you mentioned I am practicing it  for variety of problems especially in automotive engineering and have developed significant insights with  fairly  concrete conclusion that TRIZ in it's original form is not adequete for engineers to sustain it's usage. TRIZ must have evolved or is evolving with higher functionalities (Higher ideality) and my curiousiy is to know the evolutionary versions of TRIZ (like ARIZ) with it's applications to industry problems. I have collected multiple problems (Contradictions) in automotive industry and would like to post them here to invite methods and solutions. Let me know your suggestions

Comment by Prakasan K on March 12, 2012 at 9:47pm

Tushar, 

I can definitely help you with that.. however, not sure what you meant by new TRIZ methods... If you look at the original TRIZ from Altshuller, the methods he used are fairly simple and easy to use (The Suddenly an Inventor Appeared time). He focuses on System operator, Resources, STC, SLP, Resources, Contradictions, Principles, Trends, and Su-field. If you are already known to all these, next could be ARIZ and 76 standards part of ARIZ. 

From my experience the best way to learn for someone like you passionate about this is to learn by doing and experimenting. If you would like to pursue original TRIZ concepts (There are many other approaches where TRIZ is used with other concepts, TRIZ techniques being simplified for certain domains, TRIZ approaches integrated with the researcher who came out with new approach etc), the best way to start is from the original  TRIZ literature from Altshuller and his disciples. Start with "Suddenly an inventor Appeared" , "Creativity is as an exact science" invention algorithm etc. There are certification available if you are a fan of that on TRIZ from MATRIZ and I know Shri Phadni did this sometime.

This platform has lot of people from the TRIZ world, and another way to learn is to use the wisdom from them. 

Best,

Prakash

Comment by Tushar Kanikdale on March 12, 2012 at 6:27pm

Prakasan , Is there any way to learn about new TRIZ methods?

Comment by Prakasan K on March 12, 2012 at 5:39pm

Tushar, Shri Phadni is right about ARIZ and contradiction matrix. ARIZ is advanced TRIZ eliminating most of the techniques in TRIZ which we (ordinary user) normally use. The algorithmic approach from ARIZ makes the contradiction matrix redundant, and get the solution through the approach. TRIZ fraternity says that if you reach the contradiction matrix after applying all other TRIZ concepts, you are about to generate a path breaking solution, or so to simplify, you rarely use contradiction matrix even in normal TRIZ application, because the solutions could have become obvious using other TRIZ concepts. You normally see lot of people talking TRIZ out there would always refer the contradiction matrix and 40 principles as TRIZ!

Comment by Tushar Kanikdale on March 12, 2012 at 11:53am

Hi Kumarasamy, Thanks for your comments and it helps to get it closer to proposed solution. Infact I also discussed this and similar other problem with Shree Phadnis (A Renowned TRIZ Practitioner in Pune) and he pointed out that contradiction matrix is phased out in ARIZ and is hardly being used. I am looking for learning more about TRIZ evolved version

Comment by Prakasan K on March 12, 2012 at 8:25am

Thank you, Professor. It looks like you have answered all the questions related this problem. 

Comment by G S Kumarasamy on March 11, 2012 at 10:13pm

The load carrying capacity of the material is nothing but the strength of the material, which is one of the most important mechanical property of the material.   The stress is nothing but the internal resistance offered by the body (Load acting divided by cross sectional area). In real situations, maximum stress in which the body is subjected to should be always less than strength of the material.

This condition constrain  us not to increase the maximum stress.  If we increase the load , the required cross sectional area also should be increased to maintain the same value of stress.  In a typical optimizaion problem,  we keep dimensions are the design variables and to increase the load carrying capacity , we simply change the design variables or Cross sectional area.

Since the cross sectional area should be maintained constant, we need some thing extra to take care of extra load carrying capacity.  This is what TRIZ is trying to suggest us:

Improving 14: Strength without damaging 12: Shape

From the contradiction Matrix:  Inventive principles are: 10, 30, 35, 40 .

This case, it is 10 as well as 40. 

10. Perform,  before it is needed, the required change of an object (either fully or partially)

40. Composite materials. Change from uniform to composite materials.

TRIZ always have generic solutions to solve these type of problems.

Yours

Dr G S Kumarasamy

Comment by Mahendra Jondhale on March 9, 2012 at 5:17pm

Tushar,

Just seen your note I think it should fall into category of Segmentation. What do u say?

-Mahendra.

Comment by Mahendra Jondhale on March 9, 2012 at 5:14pm

Tushar, I think force is distributed as tensions in attached strings while acting on same cross-sectional area and will increase the load carrying capacity. I am not sure which TRIZ priciples takes care of this but I would say its like transfer of load through another mechanism (strings and pully in this case). You have kept the constraint of not to change the material of rod and hence idea of composite material would be discarded. Similar principle is used in costruction buildings and bridges where beam will have hollow pipes with steel ropes passing through it to distribute the load (negative bending moment). Considering same principle we can have hollow rod with steel rope passing through it to keep the weight hanging (assuming one end is attached to rod) to distribute the load. Hope this makes sense to you. Any comments are welcome.

Thanks,

Mahendra.

Comment by Tushar Kanikdale on March 9, 2012 at 11:34am

Hi Prakasan

Thanks for your comments and insights provided. In the contradction matrix I have used Force, Load, Pressure, Tension, Strength, Reliability Vs Area of stationary object

All the combinations leads to following set of principles

- Change of material

-Preliminary Counter action (It is like precompressing the bar with spring or something)

- Replace mechanical system (We can use magnetic field--- Solution near to IFR)

-Assymetry  (Not sparking any idea for me)

- Segmentation (Not sparking any idea for me)

-Dynamicity (Not sparking any idea for me)

However none of the principle is enabling to have a solution like above.

Yes I am aware that I am not questioning the system requirement to check higher level needs. This excercise is just to check how TRIZ can help us to explore multiple solutions for given problem in it's stated form.  Infact the solution proposed was not using  TRIZ methodology.....can I say that TRIZ Principles are still evolving?

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